Suicide

[Sleepy In Seattle]

I have no wisdom to offer - this is way out of my depth. I am incredibly fortunate to have no one in my family (that I know of) who has committed suicide, and family who have died have been very elderly and had relatively short illnesses as well as expert care. I am blissfully ignorant....which also kind of scares me.

I think you are very smart to educate yourself.

When this disease nibbles around the edges of us we continue our lives as best we can, but holy cow, it makes us feel so....MORTAL. It's a visceral awareness that maybe most people don't have. We peek around the corner into that dark, terrifying alley where unspeakable suffering lurks. We see it - it sees us. We can feel it sucking us in We're aware that we stand a little bit closer than most to that risky corner, and there's a hand back there that might - or might not - drag us back into the darkness at any point. So of course we look for an escape plan - whether it's as benign as Plaquenil and Ibuprofen, moving on up through Methotrexate and Cellcept and so on - the dozens of painkillers - high doses of steroids - infusions, etc - hospital stays, wheelchairs, home care - how bad does it have to get? It's terrifying. So of course you have to think about the endgame. It's silly not to.

But in the end, we ALL die - not just those of us with autoimmune diseases. We ALL do....so maybe this is one of the weird blessings of this disease? That we FEEL our mortality and actually CONSIDER it?

I don't know. I am not that sick yet (and hope not to be, of course...), so I can only imagine.

But I think this is a really important discussion and I am overwhelmed by how thoughtful and open everyone is being. When I read the original post I expected a bunch of knee-jerk reactions, but no....these are thoughtful, compassionate, COMPLICATED spirits laid bare. This is a realistic, non-judgmental discussion of the "Ultimate Taboo Subject" and it is so, so welcome.

I am both sorry and incredibly grateful I really can't relate very well to actual contemplation of that "endgame"...but it is such a comfort to read all this and know that when/if I am ready, people like you guys are out there to be REAL and kind and open.

In the meantime, please know that this discussion alone is testament to how much all your lives matter!!!!

[slccom]

Kwolf, I agree with you on the compassion. Nobody should judge when someone else feels that enough is enough, and there is no hope left. I get that, and there is a lot of unnecessary suffering. For some, the extra time is worth the suffering. For others, their business on this earth is concluded, relationships are ended, goodbyes are said, love is expressed on both sides, and it is time.

I think the trauma to "survivors" of suicide comes when the above is not accomplished. Also, many people who ensure that they have the means to end it all feel secure enough to endure more, since they do have the choice. Somewhere I found that about half of people who have official permission to kill themselves in the U.S. and have the means available choose not to. It is a very final choice, and really, it should be up to the individual.

The big problem becomes when other factors enter into it and it is no longer up to the individual. When money is involved, and the family starts encouraging suicide to preserve their inheritance things can get really ugly. As you know so well, lack of family support is a huge issue, and you can imagine how easy it is to nudge someone that direction. And it would be even easier to slip the drugs into something and turn it into a shove right over the cliff. There would be no charges of murder, either, since nobody would know. After all, the person was approved for assisted suicide and is no longer there to testify that it was actually murder.

When the government is involved, it is even scarier. In the Netherlands, doctors have moved from "assisted" suicide to forced "suicide," in part because defective infants are too expensive to suit the government health regulators. Somewhere I read about a lady with ovarian cancer, terminal, who wanted to live out her few remaining weeks because she had business to attend to. She was hospitalized for some care, left over the weekend, and when her doctor came in Monday he found that the weekend hospitalist had murdered her because she was terminal anyhow and they needed the bed for someone who could be helped. We in this country are in a situation where people are decrying "self-inflicted" illness and talking about denying health care (not just payment for it) for "the obese" and smokers and anyone who doesn't exercise enough to suit them and refuses to "eat healthy." Search the terms "assisted suicide forced" for some interesting information. The "right" quickly becomes the "duty," and if the person shirks that duty, it can be and has been forced on them.

Another search term is "not dead yet." This is an organization of people with very severe disabilities who are living productive lives (not necessarily earning money) and are very concerned about assisted suicide and the new proposal to let UNOS examine "terminal" patients for organ donation suitability WITHOUT THEIR OR THEIR FAMILY'S CONSENT OR KNOWLEDGE before the decision has been made to terminate life support.
Human nature being what it is, I think that official sanction of (especially) physician assisted suicide will send us skidding right down that icy road to the Nazi Germany philosophy about "useless eaters." And believe me, we will be considered useless eaters once we get sick enough to stop working.

This is so much bigger than individuals choosing to end their lives.

Sharon

[slccom]

Kwolf, you said you need to work another year. You might want to consider asking to start ratcheting down the out of school obligations immediately so that you can focus on your teaching duties. It comes under the heading of "reasonable accommodation." That would make it easier. Some of the other teachers on here can give you better suggestions than I can. Except, start using wheels to get from here to there immediately. Conserve your energy for the important things.

Hugs, Sharon

[susanep]

I have been slowly reading this thread. I am glad you felt comfortable to come here, and share with us how you are feeling, and what you have been thinking about.

I can hear how much everyone cares, and loves you. It generates feelings in all of us, because it touches our very humanity.

It made me think of my precious mother who passed away March 13 of this year.

It was morning, and me and my husband were asleep, when he woke up hearing a hard knocking at our door. I didn't hear anything.

He came back to me, and woke me up, and said, I have something I need to tell you. Right then fear hit me. He said that was -----to tell us your mom passed away very early in the morning(during night time hours).

Suddenly my life switched to the surreal. I remember saying no she is not dead. Then while he is saying something, I can't even tell you what, I am running to get clothes on, and saying the whole time, I want to see my momma.

I didn't get in the car. He got in the car following behind me while I am running down the drive way to mom and dad's house feeling like I am in a nightmare waiting to wake up. Praying to wake up.

I get there, and the ambulance had already taken mom's body away. I hated that I wasn't there before they took her body away.

I went to sit by dad. He also was living in a bad dream state. He just started telling what he remembered, the whole time being in a state of shock.

Today, we are all still struggling. I spend a lot of time helping dad, and we take him many places with us, and for his needs too. I will continue this in a part 2

susanep

[susanep]

Part 2
Mom is spoken in all his memories of their lives, including his working years, and even all he did as a kids.

My dad does not have Alzheimers, just the normal memory loss of age we all have.

 He turns 80 in September. He hurts with every step he takes, because he has such bad arthritis that his bones in his knees and other areas just grind together, so that causes him to walk slow.

He also had diabetes, and ulcers getting worse on his legs deep into the bones.

Dad mows his yard, talks with his great grand daughters ages (twins 5, one 8, and one 12) he also has 2 other great grand daughters age 7 and 12, but they don't live as close.

Dad planted a few vegetables, and I do mean a few. Not sure they are doing much, but in his and mom's past a garden each year was as common for them as breathing. 

He continues to go to church driving each week. Some of us go with him, but take turns.

He has his little dog he cares for that was mom's little dog. The dog grieved beyond anything I had seen after mom died, wondering where she was. The little great grand daughters that was so close to mom cried every day for a long time. They still cry and have bad dreams at night.

Their mom told them that when they are outside playing, and feel the wind blowing that it is mom giving them hugs. The  twins wait each day for that wind, and one of the twins takes it to heart so much that when she feels the wind she starts picking little flowers, and throws them up in the air to mom.

There will be a part 3
susanep

[susanep]

Part 3
Now about my mom and her pain. She had different medical problems, almost died once with electrical heart problem issues so they put a pacemaker in her heart or however they do that.

She most likely had lupus, but the doctors didn't treat her as they should have. She worked hard all her life, and developed peripheral neuropathy in her legs that got progressively worse year by year.

She told me many times that they hurt her so bad that it felt like someone lowering her legs in scalding water. Dad bought her everything that they thought might lessen the pain.

She did not have diabetes, so hers was not that kind. She would not hear of anything from us girls at Thanksgiving, Christmas, Mother's Day, Father's Day, etc. but to cook a big dinner.

It was ok for us to bring something, but she insisted on making most of the dinner. She said, I know some day I won't be able to, but I want to as long as I can. More than anything she loved dad, and all of us kids, grand kids, and sent from heaven as far as she was concerned great grand daughters.

She made those dinners up until the year before last year. Last Christmas she couldn't cook 2011, because she was weak, sick, and it was the first year in a long time that our one brother was there, because he is a long distance truck driver. So all mom's kids were there. She ended up that evening being taken to the hospital.

She was there for a week, and begging them to go home.  Dad barely able to walk the halls in this large hospital drove to see her each day. I went with him most of the time.

She had some kind of slowing of her intestinal tract with obstruction. They said she was very sick, and if she didn't improve with what they were doing to reverse that she would need surgery of a big portion of her intestines, and maybe a bag to wear.

Still though even if she needed the surgery, and bag so what at least mom would come home when well
There will be a part 4
susanep

[susanep]

Part 4
She did come home, didn't have to have the surgery or bag, but in the past fell into things alot due to her weakening legs from all the nerve damage from her neuropathy.

She fell again the evening after I had been there hours to see her and dad. I wasn't there when she fell, and hadn't seen the dark coloring on her face my sister talked about.

I called mom, and mom even told me about it, but acted like it was no big deal, but did hurt a lot.

That night she died, most likely from a brain hemorrhage. Dad said she had been throwing up all  night, and mom always easily threw up, but dad didn't know that it also can happen from a bad fall.

Mom said in the past though that she hoped to die in her sleep. Dad said that night she woke up, and mumbled where he could barely understand her, but was saying something about all her kids then went back to sleep.
 

Her and dad would have been married 60 years this past june 14. I had my rhuemy appointment that day so we took dad with us, and also took him out to dinner.

Forgive me everyone for writing so long. I am sorry, but my mom endured so much pain for her family. She told me if she didn't have family, and her belief in God she would feel like killing herself. She said she felt that way most days.
There will be a part5
susanep

[susanep]

Part 5

Sorry, it kept saying I had too many characters.
I am not preaching to anyone, but I do believe in God myself, and many in my family do too. I have seen him actually true to what he says in scripture in my life. It's amazing. Whether you precious folks like it or not, you all are always daily in my prayers. 

I believe God gave me my life as a gift even though I don't deserve it. He gives me free will, because he doesn't want no robots. hehe....

He loved me and everyone so much that he decided to send his son to be flesh too like me, so I couldn't get too whiney hehe and say he doesn't know how I feel. lol..., but also to be the ultimate sacrifice for my sins and everyone like me, and then my hope with my mom and others that he rose from that grave alive and well  and strong and that others will do the same that also believe his words are indeed what he said they are.

I don't care for religion. I could make a frog into my religion. hehe...But I do know the Loving God of the Loving scripture is good, and true for me, and others who know.

I also am trying to learn, and I say trying, to give even my daily pain to God as a morsel of a gift to him for his help. I believe even though sometimes when I come here to cry, ask for help, etc . that I can lift up my worse pain to God for help, and ultimately as my biggest gift to him as I keep holding on and endure for me, him, and family and friends. Someday, if my pain causes me to want to take my life, I so pray everyone will pray for me for intervention to stop me, please.

I feel such a love for all of you right now that I really have no words for. But each of you are part of a beautiful plan. We are each here for a reason, a story, a lesson for others, a wonderful large family, mostly I believe to honor God, Jesus too, ok, and the Holy Spirit.

There will be a part 6
susanep

[susanep]

Part 6
I take meds for my diagnosis, symptoms, pain, pain, and pain, nooooo energy, and I have so much loss of memory that there is a word in this writing that I have to insert when finished to ask my husband what it is called before I send this post. hehe

I have seen a psychiatrist, or rather many of them, for meds, etc. I could tell you stories, but some things are private, and painful.

I wrote all of this for what it's worth not meaning to offend any of you precious people, to say if your thinking of suicide think instead of livingcide (a new word I invented), get an appointment with a psychiatrist to tell him/her how you feel, get meds that will help, sometimes need to be patient while they get the right one adjusted for you, and get pain meds you need to help your days, and find even just one good thing about your day each day.

My thing today that is good is this board of people that come together and share their feelings, pain, good times, funny times, rants, ideas, new article findings, things we can do, etc. etc. well stick around everyone, because one thing is for sure, if you are not here you are really going to miss out.

Whew, I am finished!!!!
susanep     Moderators, please say I am not knocked off this board?  I will understand though if you do.

[Meld256]

This thread has become more wonderful and interesting as it goes. 

Sleep in Seattle, I think you put it so well...there have been no knee-jerk reactions on this discussion.  Only compassionate, well-thought replies on what all this means to each of us.  As you said, a realistic and non-judgmental discussion about a subject no one seems to talk about. 

Thank you, Kwolf for beginning this discussion.  Something that may sound so morbid has actually become a true sharing for so many of us, and our deep thoughts and feelings.  I hope all our experiences help you.

Not trying to beat this into the ground, but please remember you have choices.  As difficult as it may sound to you to change your teaching career, when you say you cannot do this any longer and live this way, it's time to make plans to change something.

I know it's a difficult thing to do when our self-worth is tied to our careers, and we have worked toward certain goals all our adult lives.  It can be tough to "reinvent" ourselves as someone who is not "going to work" as we always have.  I struggled with this quite a bit when I filed for disability.  It takes time to work out how to spend our lives differently, but we find that we can still be productive and fulfilled in ways we may have never thought of before. 

[Meld256]

Susanep,

You'll never be "banned" or knocked off for expressing yourself and encouraging all of us, my dear.  Thank you for your deep sharing.

Blessings,
Melinda

[Cindy]

Susanep Im sitting in the airport waiting for my flight back home and Im crying none stop. Your posts meant so much to me. At the beginning I felt sad and I really wanted to commit suicide  I didnt want to live a sick life. My syptoms are not as bad right now and I always wonder how they going to be tomorrow, next week, next year 10 years. There a lot of days that I wonder why me. Suicide erased out of my mind when I realised how much my family loves me and even though Im sick my kids dont see that yet. Maybe when my kids grow up and they dont longer need their mom Suicide will come in my mind again but for know I have a husband, 2 sons, brother sisters ans parents that love me so much thats all I need.

Kwolfsheimer have you try Evoxac? Maybe it will help better. I really hope your doctors can help you and manage your symptoms better.

[susanep]

Cindy you hang in there. I will keep praying for you. I know it's hard. But, you are worth it. I know that is a strange comment, but this world would not be the same without you. Each solitary individual like you make up this world.

Take care
susanep

[KatieB]

  I don't have long to post today, but I got caught up in this amazing discussion. I agree that it takes a lot of courage to make either decision, to go on in the face of pain and agony, to be with those you love, or to choose to die and move on to whatever I next, alone. I, personally believe that there is more after this life, but it would be so frightening to me to take that step. I do think both choices take courage.
 
  I do think that assisted suicide, where you talk to the people you love and make an informed choice, causes much less pain and agony. You can say goodbye and resolve things, it is a kinder, gentler way for everyone involved.

  My husband and I happened to catch a wonderful PBS show called "The Suicide Tourist" about a man named Craig Ewert and his journey to Switzerland to die. He and his family had made this choice after he was diagnosed with ALS and had become increasingly disabled. To choose assisted suicide in Switzerland you have to be able to state, on video, that this is your choice, not coerced, and be able to push the button yourself, to discontinue life support. He knew if he waited any longer he wouldn't be able to do those things anymore. He said goodbye to his children and then he and his wife made the journey from the US. The documentary takes you all the way with them. They talk about why they made this choice, their feelings, and the reactions of others. It is really, really good and goes over a lot of the issues discussed here. You do see him die, and I have to admit it was   Hard for me to watch that part and it made me cry. But I would recommend this movie highly. If you look up PBS assisted suicide you can find info on the documentary, and also an interview with his family about how they are doing now. They are all okay with the choice he made, and it's definitely worth reading, as well as the comments after, which are 99% positive.

  One of my very favorite authors, Terry Pratchett, who is an amazing man, and a very talented satirist, is facing the same issue, as he was diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's. He also made a movie, shown in England, called " Choosing To Die". I have not seen that one, but I have been keeping up with his story as he is someone I admire greatly. He is still writing books, and is not ready to make that choice yet, but is keeping the option open and has the paperwork.

  It is a hard issue to discuss, and I think it is wonderful that the people in this group can discuss it so compassionately, with such great advice!  I'm now running really late, but that's okay!

[susanep]

Thanks Melinda 

susanep