Author Topic: Aching bones, joints & phytoestrogens  (Read 218 times)

Maria3667

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Aching bones, joints & phytoestrogens
« on: June 02, 2019, 12:46:45 PM »
My corporate doctor thinks my frozen shoulder could be due to low estrogen (menopausal for 1 year now).

As one of my brothers died of bowel cancer last year at only 52 years of age, I'm scared to use the real thing.

To test her theory, I tried high dose soy isoflavones, (phytoestrogens - estrogens from plants) right of the bat. Lo & behold, the excruciating pain in my worst affected shoulder decreased markedly at day 4. But....... of course side effects have to rain on my parade: parched throat, mouth & eyes. Why is there always a downfall???

This hormone business is so confusing, even WebMD admits that! Estrogen & testosterone competing for the same receptor? So could it be the solution is either / or (if dose is high enough)???

I'd love to try albeit I'm scared of weight gain and other nasty effects... For now I'll wearily stumble on, hopefully hitting a solution as I scuffle along...

« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 12:52:05 PM by Maria3667 »
51. DES-daughter, GAD, Lyme's ('98), Sjogren's ('03), hypothyroid ('04), osteoarthritis ('16), Blepharitis ('18), bilateral Frozen Shoulder ('19), pilocarpine, thyroid hormones, 25mg quetiapine, low dose testosterone. Endometriosis, cherry angiomas. Allergies: nickle, methylisothiazolinone, latex

irish

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Re: Aching bones, joints & phytoestrogens
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2019, 01:42:53 PM »
Just a question cause I don't know these things. Isn't the estrogen in the plants capable of causing cancer and other side effects also at higher dosages??? I took Premarin only for 13 years after hysterectomy back in 1990. I had both ovaries removed at this time also. I never noticed much change post op with the premarin only and I had sjogrens symptoms for over 25 years by that time.

This hormone stuff is so iffy and hard to make a decision on. I just quit one day when medical people decided breast cancer was very susceptible to the premarin. And here I am 76 years old.....still alive but don't know if I made the right decision. Also took statins for 13 years and then quit and said to heck with it. Im on Metformin for 9 years now and swear it has brought down my cholesterol. My HDL is 88......Good luck. Irish

Maria3667

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Re: Aching bones, joints & phytoestrogens
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2019, 02:08:18 PM »
Hi Irish,

I think your assumption is correct. Albeit that phytoestrogens are supposed to be 100x less potent than estradiol and also latch on to a different receptor (beta instead of alpha, or something).

Literature claims Asian women have less menopausal and hormonal trouble because of higher soy consumption. So is Sjogren's less prevalent in Asia because of soy consumption? EDITED: see study I just posted 'Ethniticity matters in Sjogren's syndrome' (saying Sjogren's prevalence is HIGHEST amongst Asian women).

I feel science has only scraped at the tip of the hormonal iceberg. They're so intricately intertwined. So many u-turns, feedback-mechanisms, loopholes and cul-de-sacs. It's dazzling. Are they the end products or starting points of the quest to a cure?

Then there's the possibility of undiscovered hormones.

Hopefully we'll find out & benefit within our lifetimes!



 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 07:09:19 AM by Maria3667 »
51. DES-daughter, GAD, Lyme's ('98), Sjogren's ('03), hypothyroid ('04), osteoarthritis ('16), Blepharitis ('18), bilateral Frozen Shoulder ('19), pilocarpine, thyroid hormones, 25mg quetiapine, low dose testosterone. Endometriosis, cherry angiomas. Allergies: nickle, methylisothiazolinone, latex

Sharon

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Re: Aching bones, joints & phytoestrogens
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2019, 03:01:42 PM »
I have read in many places that soy is inflammatory.
Perhaps that is what may explain your adverse effects when using it?
Sjogren's (+ RA?) positive ANA, RNP, RNP-A, APCA salivary gland swelling, dry mouth & eyes,, eyelid swelling & redness, photosensitivity, fatigue, severe joint pain, multiple sensitivities and allergic reactions 
Orencia, Restasis, Paleo Diet, Vit. D & C, Ubiquinol 200mg, Omega 3...

Maria3667

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Re: Aching bones, joints & phytoestrogens
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2019, 05:49:41 AM »
Hi Sharon,

Ah right, so soy makes Sjogren's worse... However, my physician says frozen shoulder is also caused by inflammation - is it a different type of inflammation from Sjogren's then? Seems contradictory because soy 'heals' the shoulder but on the same token worsens Sjogren's... I don't get it anymore!  :o

The best is probably to follow up on Jameroquai's advice: "I'm going deeper underground, there's too much panick in this town..." Lalala..  Lol...
51. DES-daughter, GAD, Lyme's ('98), Sjogren's ('03), hypothyroid ('04), osteoarthritis ('16), Blepharitis ('18), bilateral Frozen Shoulder ('19), pilocarpine, thyroid hormones, 25mg quetiapine, low dose testosterone. Endometriosis, cherry angiomas. Allergies: nickle, methylisothiazolinone, latex

irish

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Re: Aching bones, joints & phytoestrogens
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2019, 01:29:35 PM »
I have avoided soy for many years. I read labels on everything was I learned to do that with my celiac disease husband. Soy was to be avoided with celiac also due to inflammatory effects. Thanks Irish

Carolina

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Re: Aching bones, joints & phytoestrogens
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2019, 03:48:19 PM »
My theories:

Living is dangerous to your health.

Pick your poison.

You don't get out alive.

Everything has a downside (you can drown in water!)

It's always something, then it's something else.

Try something.....see what happens.  You can always stop, of course.  In most cases.

I'm 77 and have used topical bio identical estrogen gel for at least 25 years.  My current doctor wants me off....but I won't go off if I can help it. 

Hey, I'm 77, and have so many issues already, what's another one?  Of course, when/if I have cancer, I'll be all bent out of shape.  And cross that bridge when I come to it.

Hugs,  Elaine
Female-Elaine,76-CVID-pSJS-IC-PN-CAD-Osteoarthritis-COPD-SFN-Knee/Shoulder Degeneration-SIBO-Intertrigo-Act.Purpura-Anemia-Copper Def-Raynaud's-Meniere's-Hiatal Hernia-Achalasia-IVIG Gamunex-Medrol-Gabapentin-Atenolol-Pilocarpine-LDN-Nasonex-Lipitor-Estrogel-B-12-Iron-D-Mannose-NAC-Co-Q10-D3-Omega 3

irish

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Re: Aching bones, joints & phytoestrogens
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2019, 10:43:22 PM »
Caaroline, Thanks for the little bits of funny truths. They are all true and also good and funny. Irish

It ain't over til it's over!!!!

Maria3667

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Re: Aching bones, joints & phytoestrogens
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2019, 03:25:10 AM »
Hi Elaine,

Hehehe... funny!  ;D ;D

Trying = learning!

If you don't try, you won't know if it works...

If it doesn't work, try something else.

Want orangeade but life only gives you sour grapes? Make wine & drown your sorrows! ... Lol ...  ;D

On a serious note though... What benefit does estrogen give you?
51. DES-daughter, GAD, Lyme's ('98), Sjogren's ('03), hypothyroid ('04), osteoarthritis ('16), Blepharitis ('18), bilateral Frozen Shoulder ('19), pilocarpine, thyroid hormones, 25mg quetiapine, low dose testosterone. Endometriosis, cherry angiomas. Allergies: nickle, methylisothiazolinone, latex

irish

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Re: Aching bones, joints & phytoestrogens
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2019, 02:07:16 PM »
When one is menopausal the little bit of estrogen helps decrease vaginal dryness, helps some women sleep better at night because they have less hot sweats....some women like it because their skin looks younger, some women take it cause it is said to help prevent osteoporosis. The list goes on. The bottom line is it has to be prescribed and if a doctor refuses a woman has to go elsewhere.

There is also the chance that taking estrogen can increase the chance of blood clots which can be fatal. One should also keep in mind that the very thin women are more apt to have osteoporosis issues and other problems associated with lack of estrogen. The other end of this spectrum is that women who carry some weight or extra "padding are more apt to have a higher estrogen level. The "fat" seems to absorb and hang onto estrogen taken in by diet or the small amount that is produced by the menopausal ovaries. So, as with most things with the body there is no "for sure" answer and all we can do is make educated guesses when to need to make a decision about longer term estrogen. Good luck. Irish