Author Topic: Copper supplement recommendation  (Read 1514 times)

Carolina

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Copper supplement recommendation
« on: November 25, 2013, 12:57:36 PM »
Dear Sjogren's Angels

I need to take a copper supplement for three months.  I don't know which one to take. Does anyone have a suggestion?

My copper was a little bit low so my neurologist wants me to do a  copper supplement for three months and then he will retest.

Counting on someone out there to know what I should do.

Hugs, Elaine
Female-72-CVID-pSJS-IC-Periph.Neuro.-CAD-Osteoarthritis-Auto.Neuro-SFN-Anemia-Copper Def-Raynaud's Blepharitis,Meniere's/Deafness-Hiatal Hernia-IVIG-Gamunex-Medrol-Neurontin,Atenolol-Pilocarpine-Copper-Cymbalta-Nasonex-Lipitor-Estrogel-B-12-Iron-A Lipoic-D-Mannose-NAC-Co-Q10-Turmeric-Aleve-D3-Omega3

aussie mum

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2013, 02:02:50 PM »
Hi Elaine,

I have no idea of copper supplements but I am wondering if you could increase your copper naturally through diet (with the approval of your Dr).

My brother has too much copper in his system (Wilsons Disease) and has to follow a very strict diet in addition to medication to control his disease. There is a massive list of foods he needs to avoid including Shellfish and Chocolate.

Maybe you can live on a diet of Lobster and Chocolate.......I always said chocolate was medicinal.

All jokes aside, I hope this might be another piece in the puzzle that helps you to feel better.
Daughter - SJS, Lupus, Underactive Thyroid, Wolff Parkinson White Syndrome & Insulin Resistance.

Me - Ankylosing Spondylitis, Total Thyroidectomy, High Blood Pressure, Hiatus Hernia, Dry Eyes & Mouth, Stomach Issues, Enbrel, Thyroxine, Atacand, Pariet, Mtx, Fish Oil, Vit D.

anita

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2013, 02:24:33 PM »
Elaine,

I don't know anything about copper supplementation, but I know who probably does.  Ask MrsD at the PN forum of neurotalk.  She is a retired pharmacist of 30+ years and a supplement expert.

I did, however, find this on copper deficiency and it appears that there is serious neuro complications from this...including possibly your PN,  and even anemia, and immune deficiency as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_deficiency

Did your doctor tell you the level and reference range?  Did he say it could be the cause of your PN or other neuro sysmtoms?  Copper deficiency is very rare.  I would also ask your immunologist about this...and maybe see a hematologist.

You may have stumbled onto a big piece to your puzzle.


50 yr old SjS, APS w/strokes, Autonomic Neuropathy, PN, Nephrogenic DI, (PID) IgG def., Cushing's, Asthma, Gastroparesis.  Sero-neg w/+ lip biopsy.  Meds: IVIG & pre-meds, Arixtra, Aspirin, Plaquenil, Nitro, Cardizem, Imdur, Toprol XL, Domperidone, Nexium, Midodrine, Symbicort, Oxycontin, Zofran

Carolina

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2013, 03:53:35 PM »
I asked MrsD on Neurotalk.

I read up on it and I also have anemia, as well as PN.  I don't know if this level of deficiency is really that serious?

These are my numbers:

Component            Standard Range          Your Value
Copper, 24H Ur         15 - 60 mcg/spec                  14
Copper Conc         15 - 60 mcg/L                            5

Doctor's Comment:  Your copper level is low based upon this testing. I would advice you begin taking an oral copper supplement (typically over-the-counter and available at specialty stores such as GNC). I would take the recommended amount (depending upon the formulation you purchase) every day for at least 3 months. Then we can consider repeating the testing at some point down the line.

Thanks,  Elaine
Female-72-CVID-pSJS-IC-Periph.Neuro.-CAD-Osteoarthritis-Auto.Neuro-SFN-Anemia-Copper Def-Raynaud's Blepharitis,Meniere's/Deafness-Hiatal Hernia-IVIG-Gamunex-Medrol-Neurontin,Atenolol-Pilocarpine-Copper-Cymbalta-Nasonex-Lipitor-Estrogel-B-12-Iron-A Lipoic-D-Mannose-NAC-Co-Q10-Turmeric-Aleve-D3-Omega3

anita

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2013, 05:14:27 PM »
One test seems mildly low, but the other is significant.  This is RARE to be copper deficient.  I would ask your doctors (all of them) WHY and what impact this has on your other conditions.  Seems to me that your anemia, immune deficiency and neuro problems are likely all related to this. 

Wouldn't that be great if simply raising your copper would help your PN, anemia, and immune deficiency???  I'd still want to know how on earth it got low, but it would be good news if this helps you.

MrsD will help you find the right supplement (quality) and may even explain some of how it gets low and what conditions are related.

Please keep us posted on this important finding!!
 
50 yr old SjS, APS w/strokes, Autonomic Neuropathy, PN, Nephrogenic DI, (PID) IgG def., Cushing's, Asthma, Gastroparesis.  Sero-neg w/+ lip biopsy.  Meds: IVIG & pre-meds, Arixtra, Aspirin, Plaquenil, Nitro, Cardizem, Imdur, Toprol XL, Domperidone, Nexium, Midodrine, Symbicort, Oxycontin, Zofran

Carolina

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2013, 08:24:05 PM »
Hi, Anita and Aussie Mom,

I had a lovely long email from my neurologist today.  amazing.

It was in response to the email I sent to him, that I asked for help with earlier.  I'll include it at the end of that post.  So people can see how he responded!

I've been reading different things about copper deficiency which is, surely, rare.

It has been tied to zinc overdose, related primarily to denture creams!  I don't have dentures and don't take zinc.

It has also been tied to Proton Pump Inhibitors (decreasing copper absorption).  I do take a PPI, so I will mention that to my doctor.  However, I have no idea when the copper deficiency started. 

I can't see a reference relating it to Immune deficiency, but definitely to anemia (mine is idiopathic) and to Neuropathy (also idiopathic at this point).

I just find myself thinking that this isn't really important.  Rather like I've felt about most tests which seemed interesting and then turned out to be normal, except for a very few: PN, anemia, CAD, IC and then CVID, to name five.   I have had hundreds of tests over the years, and most of them turn out just fine after some false alarms.  Oh, I also have a hiatus hernia, I guess.  But it causes no problems.  And once upon a time I tested allergic to everything, but I honestly think I was allergic to the tests themselves.

I also could not find any scale or chart that evaluated my copper deficiency in relation to normal levels. I mean how serious is it?  On one scale it is only 1 point below the low end of normal, but on the other it is only 33% of the low end of normal.  I just have no clue.

I guess it is just so rare as to be uncharted.  Unlike the Humoral Competency evaluation for IgG, for example.

Just when I think that every possible twist and turn has been encountered, off we go on another tack.

I find it exhausting.

Hugs, Elaine





 
Female-72-CVID-pSJS-IC-Periph.Neuro.-CAD-Osteoarthritis-Auto.Neuro-SFN-Anemia-Copper Def-Raynaud's Blepharitis,Meniere's/Deafness-Hiatal Hernia-IVIG-Gamunex-Medrol-Neurontin,Atenolol-Pilocarpine-Copper-Cymbalta-Nasonex-Lipitor-Estrogel-B-12-Iron-A Lipoic-D-Mannose-NAC-Co-Q10-Turmeric-Aleve-D3-Omega3

SjoAmy

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2013, 08:27:59 PM »
I'd ask the neuro to write a Rx for the copper supplement.
Epilepsy; Sjogren's Syndrome; RA; Hashimoto's; Meralgia Paresthetica, Peripheral Neuropathy; Chronic Bronchitis w/COPD;

aussie mum

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2013, 02:55:53 AM »
Carolina,

I agree that our lives are so exhausting, it's because we're all Zebras. I had a particularly bad day today with pain, I can see why people end up on anti depressants - I long for the day when I have no pain (but I digress).

It is interesting that you mention the PPI's decrease copper absorption. My brother actually takes an arthritis medication for the sole purpose of reducing his copper levels. I suppose it's the same as taking a Malaria medication for Auto Immune diseases.

I've been searching Dr google and found a couple of interesting links.

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=167&ContentID=total_copper_blood

"Copper deficiency can lead to problems with connective tissue, muscle weakness, anemia, low white blood cell count, neurological problems, and paleness."

This one seems to have a lot of good information about diet, supplement levels and possible interactions.

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/copper

I wonder if we all had our copper levels tested, what the results would be !
Daughter - SJS, Lupus, Underactive Thyroid, Wolff Parkinson White Syndrome & Insulin Resistance.

Me - Ankylosing Spondylitis, Total Thyroidectomy, High Blood Pressure, Hiatus Hernia, Dry Eyes & Mouth, Stomach Issues, Enbrel, Thyroxine, Atacand, Pariet, Mtx, Fish Oil, Vit D.

lighthouse33

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2013, 11:18:20 AM »
Copper Supplement (Oral Route)

Precautions

Do not take copper supplements and zinc supplements at the same time. It is best to take your copper supplement 2 hours after zinc supplements, to get the full benefit of each.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DR602273/DSECTION=precautions-

There is no RDA or RNI for copper. However, normal daily recommended intakes are generally defined as follows:

?   Infants and children?
o   Birth to 3 years of age: 0.4 to 1 milligram (mg) per day.
o   4 to 6 years of age: 1 to 1.5 mg per day.
o   7 to 10 years of age: 1 to 2 mg per day.
?   Adolescent and adult males?1.5 to 2.5 mg per day.
?   Adolescent and adult females?1.5 to 3 mg per day.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DR602273

Dietary Source
s
Copper is found in these foods:

?   Seafood, such as oysters, squid, lobster, mussels, crab, and clams
?   Organ meats, such as beef liver, kidneys, and heart
?   Nuts and nut butters, such as cashews, filberts, macadamia nuts, pecans, almonds, and pistachios
?   Legumes, such as soybeans, lentils, navy beans, and peanuts
?   Chocolate, such as unsweetened or semisweet baker's chocolate and cocoa
?   Enriched cereals, such as bran flakes, shredded wheat, and raisin bran
?   Fruits and vegetables, such as dried fruits, mushrooms, tomatoes, potatoes, sweet potatoes, bananas, grapes, and avocado
?   Blackstrap molasses
?   Black pepper

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/supplement/copper

What are the signs of a deficiency?

Copper deficiency is rare, but can occur in people who are severely undernourished or who have chronic diarrhea. Disorders that impair nutrient absorption, such as Crohn's disease, can also lead to copper deficiency, as can high dietary intakes of iron or zinc. Signs of deficiency include bleeding under the skin, damaged blood vessels, hair loss, pale skin, and an enlarged heart. Symptoms include fatigue and, because copper plays a role in immunity, imbalances can make you more susceptible to infections.

drweil.com/drw/u/ART02871/copper.html

How Do I Choose the Best Copper Supplement?

http://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-i-choose-the-best-copper-supplement.htm

In order to prevent a copper deficiency, be sure that you are eating foods that contain the nutrient, including beans, peas, and potatoes, as well as nuts and beef liver. Generally, a person is not copper deficient if he or she eats an ample diet of fruits and vegetables. If you do not have enough copper in the blood, it is usually indicative of a health ailment, such as anemia or jaundice. Too much copper is sometimes related to Wilson?s disease; in such cases, you should avoid using copper supplements.

Top Rated in Copper Mineral Supplements on Amazon

Ranked #5

Source Naturals Copper Sebacate 22mg

Copper is important as a cofactor for many enzyme systems (including superoxide dismutase [SOD] and other antioxidants), as a catalyst in the synthesis of hemoglobin, and in collagen formation. Copper also helps in energy production, aids in iron metabolism, and protects nerve fibers.
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SjoGirl

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2013, 09:59:09 AM »
Carolina given that there seem to be pluses and minuses with every supplement I agree with those who suggest asking your doc about possible reason for the deficiency, how bad is it, can food help (or not), and if you need a supplement, which one, for how long, and when will he retest you.

I was taking a PPI last year and was having lots of very uncomfortable side effects. My former gastro doc wanted me to stay on it, my PCP said they are very bad for you (risk of fracture increases by 50% after a year of taking a PPI) and both she and I wanted me off of it. I weaned myself off of it (it takes a long time) and felt much better.

However, I believe that the PPI (combined with age and maybe other factors) led to me being diagnosed with osteopenia. So now I'm on Fosomax.

Ah yes, maddening some days. That said I'm grateful for test, docs, and meds because I think at times that if I lived in an earlier age I might be dead or crippled by now.
Raynauds, SjS, Anemia, neutropenia, leukopenia, thrombocytopenia, osteopenia, degenerative disc disease and viral infection. Reclast, Restasis, Vitamin D, Feosol (if my iron levels really dip), Acyclovir.

Carolina

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2013, 11:26:15 AM »
Thanks for the posts, Lighthouse and SjoGirl and Aussie Mum again,

So many things to think about.

My Immunologist wants me to take a copper supplement for 3 months, and then he will retest me.

He clearly thinks the test results warrant a supplement trial:

HIS COMMENT: Your copper level is low based upon this testing. I would advice you begin taking an oral copper supplement (typically over-the-counter and available at specialty stores such as GNC). I would take the recommended amount (depending upon the formulation you purchase) every day for at least 3 months. Then we can consider repeating the testing at some point down the line.

PPI:  SjoGirl:  I've taken the PPI for probably 8 years or more, because the medication that relieves my pain the best is Aleve (Naproxen Sodium) which I take twice a day, every day.  In order to protect my stomach, I take Omprazole, 60 mg, every day as well.

I think it is very possible that the PPI has caused my copper deficiency, although I have not found a regular medical or research site that makes the connection.  All the sites I could find are 'alternative' and don't mention any research or hard data.  I wish I could find an NIH site that mentions copper and PPI intake.

IRON:  I've supplemented with Iron twice daily since I was diagnosed with Anemia in 2007.  The anemia is idiopathic, of course.  Now I read that excess iron intake can cause copper deficiency….but I don't ever test high in ferritin or on other iron measures.

This a test result from 2012, when I was taking Iron TWICE A DAY:

                Range                  My results
Ferritin   11 - 204 ng/ml       20

20 on a range of 11-204 while taking TWO iron tablets a day indicates, to me, that I do not have excess iron in my system.

Besides, one of the symptoms of copper deficiency is anemia. 

You can see why this makes me very tired. 

I had a bone density scan in 2006, and my bones were terrific, of course that's now 7 years ago!  Yikes, when I have tests all the time, it seems like everything was recent.  But there are so many tests!

Lighthouse33, there's no possibility that I have ever had deficient copper intake.  I take a multivitamin with 25% of the RDA for copper, and eat nuts, soybeans, enriched cereals, sweet potatoes, bananas, grapes, and avocado. 

I don't take zinc, or use a product with zinc in it.

As I said, this is just confounding.  I'll take the copper when it arrives.  And just wait and see. 
I'm still waiting  to find out when I have an IVIG for my Immune Deficiency.

I couldn't find any link with my Immune Deficiency and copper deficiency!  I have Googled myself  out!.

Hugs, Elaine




Female-72-CVID-pSJS-IC-Periph.Neuro.-CAD-Osteoarthritis-Auto.Neuro-SFN-Anemia-Copper Def-Raynaud's Blepharitis,Meniere's/Deafness-Hiatal Hernia-IVIG-Gamunex-Medrol-Neurontin,Atenolol-Pilocarpine-Copper-Cymbalta-Nasonex-Lipitor-Estrogel-B-12-Iron-A Lipoic-D-Mannose-NAC-Co-Q10-Turmeric-Aleve-D3-Omega3

Nat

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2013, 11:37:35 AM »
Hi Elaine~

If you are looking for an association between autoimmune disease and copper, it could be due to the elevated levels of homocysteine that are found in patients with autoimmune disease. Homocysteine interferes with the metabolism of copper.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0076209

lighthouse33

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2013, 12:32:46 PM »
Proton Pump Inhibitors Interfere With Zinc Absorption and Zinc Body Stores:

This research paper addresses copper as well as zinc. 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jKFKhY_-FJcJ:gastrores.org/index.php/Gastrores/article/download/379/424+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

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Carolina

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2013, 01:02:47 PM »
Hi Nat,

With this Neurologist the information that copper deficiency may be connected to autoimmune conditions won't carry much weight.  He tested me for just about every possible autoimmune condition in 2010 and I was normal (negative) for every single one.

Unfortunately, I cannot view those tests.  But I was also tested in 2011 by my Rheumatologist and I think some of those are available.  I do have these tests, but I don't know what they all are about.

Angio Convert Enzyme   8 - 53 U/L        9
Sedimentation Rate-Automated   0 - 15 MM@1HR   15
C3 Complement   86 - 208 mg/dL         113
C4 Complement   13 - 47 mg/dL      25
G6PD Assay       17.0 UNITS/GRAM HEMOGLOBIN
(NORMAL RANGE: 7.0-20.5 UNITS/GRAM HEMOGLOBIN)
Creatinine   0.4 - 1.0 mg/dL                  0.9
C Reactive Protein   <=0.9 MG/DL   < 0.2

The neurologist clearly relies entirely upon testing to establish autoimmune conditions.

Lighthouse:  The article you cite is basically discussing the effect of PPI's on zinc absorption.  The concern was that INCREASING zinc to offset the depletion by the PPI would then REDUCE the copper in the body is what is being researched.

No mention is made in the study of the PPI itself reducing the copper.  Only that INCREASING zinc during the study (to offset the reduction of zinc by the PPI) did not seem, in this study to also reduce the copper.

Excess zinc is known to reduce copper in the body. 

As I said, this entire subject is difficult and makes my very tired!  Of course, my AI conditions make me tired anyway. 

I do appreciate more than you can know the efforts to assist me with this.

Hugs, Elaine


Female-72-CVID-pSJS-IC-Periph.Neuro.-CAD-Osteoarthritis-Auto.Neuro-SFN-Anemia-Copper Def-Raynaud's Blepharitis,Meniere's/Deafness-Hiatal Hernia-IVIG-Gamunex-Medrol-Neurontin,Atenolol-Pilocarpine-Copper-Cymbalta-Nasonex-Lipitor-Estrogel-B-12-Iron-A Lipoic-D-Mannose-NAC-Co-Q10-Turmeric-Aleve-D3-Omega3

Nat

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Re: Copper supplement recommendation
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2013, 05:32:39 PM »
Hi Elaine~Homocysteine is linked to many of the conditions you list in your profile.

For instance, here are a few studies that link homocysteine to CAD.
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17990950

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3347846/


Here is one on osteoarthritis. The researchers found that even moderately increased levels of homocysteine were associated with osteoarthritis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2758241/

One on Menieres

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14661435

And one on peripheral neuropathy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21418881